Well, you're talking or ranting about a lot of background stuff, but not so much about the actual debate at hand. Who dictates that a debate's framing of the issues is proper or improper? A Christian and I clashed on this topic, and this is the debate that resulted. It is what it is, and you either find it helpful or you don't. It sounds like you would rather have read a different debate, but we weren't trying to please just you. Matthew and I have our different views on the matter, and this debate is what resulted from the clash between them.